Interview with American Teachers

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AT/Air1ie interivew/introduction/1

The following interview took place on January 16, 1987, at
Air1ie House in Virginia with six AFT members who had
participated in a week-long AFT conference on education reform.
The six teachers, all of whom are involved in professional
issues~~~~hin their locals, were recommended by the AFT's
educat~l issues department.

Interviewers were Trish Gorman, editor, and Roger Glass,
associate editor, American Teacher. Those interviewed were as
follows:

Rochelle Hutcherson
Newark Federation of Teachers

Basil Thomas
Houston Federation of Teachers

Julie Hess
Toledo Federation of Teachers

Jim Threinen
Robbinsdale (Minn.) Federation of Teachers

Deanna Woods
Portland (oregon) Federation of Teachers

Marsha Osborne
Brevard (Florida) Federation of Teachers


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Trisb Gorman: First I would like you to introduce
yourselves and tell us what you teach, how many years you've
been teaching, etc. My first question is this: You've had
nearly a week talking about how we're going to transform the
teaching profession and schools. I thought we'd go back to
something very basic--your own classroom. If you were empowered
to change one or two or three things in your school, if you
could go back from here and say "this is going to happen
tomorrow" or "this is something that I would like to change,"
what would you change, and why?

Marsba Osborne: I'm Marsha Osborne from Brevard County,
Florida, and I teach children with learning disabilities. I've
been teaching for six years in the school system and had
preschool experience before that. The thing I would like to see
us get to do is more time to share ideas. I am also the local
site coordinator [AFT'£ Educational and Reasearch Dissemination
project] of our district and I see the excitement that comes
out of these sessions. That's the most important thing that we
have is our experiences, and we don't get to share those. Here
we are in our own little cubicles trying to recreate this wheel,
doing all this trial and error, and the lady two doors down has
already found a solution to that problem, and we're missing it.

Roger Glass: When you say more time to share ideas, would it

be your suggestion then that some time specifically be

designated when teachers could get together on some formal

basis?

Osborne: Yes, I would like to see that. I don't have an

exact format in mind, and I know some of these things cost

money, but we spend a lot of time quote "being inserviced" and
[it's] the old thing about an expert is anyone who lives more

than 30 miles away •••well, you know some of the experts live

next door, and we don't get any of their expertise. The premise

of the ER&D program is that we share the latest research

information. If we can't get the infdrmation about the latest

research directly from the researchers, then we can share ways

of implementing that research. We've taken the best of both

worlds--we've got the research, the theory and then the

practical [experience].

Rochelle Hutcherson: I'm Rochelle Hutcherson from the Newark
school system. I am a basic skiQls teacher--that's a pullout
program. I've been teaching 18 years. I would restructure the
school. When you restructure, a teacher has more input into how
the school is run, from curriculum all the way down to where
your students are going to next year. I've found that in
Newark, because everything is mandated from some hierarchy or
some other group and it's filtered down to us and we have no
input into it, that the scores are low and yet we are held
accountable for everything that happens in the district. But we


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have no input into how to solve the problem. I would go right
into my school tomorrow, and start restructuring •.• but very
slowly. I wouldn't go back and just hit the teachers with this
brand-new reform, because the teachers just can't make that
adjustment right away. Give it to us a little at a time. I
believe in peer review, but let's start with quality circles or
a group to talk about what our problems are and see if we can
help each other one to one. I really am for the reform of
restructuring the schools, but over a period of time more than
just three months. Give us a long prescription, a year or two,
and I think we could pull it off.

Gorman: Would there be anyone thing that you would start

with? Obviously you can't'restructure the [entire] school at

once. ~~"""

cROCh:i~. Yes, I would develop a different communication
base with my administration. Instead of the principal dictating
these things to us, we would discuss it••.make us an equal ••• an
equal communications basis. That's where I would start.

Basil Thomas: I'm Basil Thomas from the Houston Federation
of Teachers. I teach for the Houston Independent School District
in Houston, Texas. My subject matter is correlated language
arts for seniors--that's a non-college-bound English course. I
have taught in secondary schools for 35 years and two years of
college teaching for a total of 37 years. I also am a site
coordinator for ER&D.

If I went back and looked in my classroom, the first thing I
would change would involve the curriculum, some of the elements
in the curriculum and some of the sequencing of that
curriculum--the time frame for those elements. I agree with you
[motioning to Marsha Osborne] to have informal symposium time
where teachers could get together and share things that work.
As a result of this ER&D program in our building, we have a lot
of teachers who have benefited from it already arid we do share
one on one, but we miss an opportunity some time to continue to
share it.

I dOislike and am angry about mandates. I dislike being
ordered. Now, I realize that you can have polite commands
[laughter] ••• "please do this, would you do this," but just the
formation of "this needs to be done, could we talk about it?" is
a whole lot better than "you shall do this at this time." The
mandates I find difficult to work with. Since I work with
seniors, I try to eliminate mandates to them, since they also
found them difficult to work with. Now, the polite requests are
still necessities, but it makes the difference.

Glass and Gorman: What are examples of those mandates? And

from whom?

Thomas: All right. Let's say, "You will have your lesson

plans in by noon Friday."

Glass: Is that a mandate from the principal or the school
district?


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Tho_as: From the principal. Now the district does require
lesson plans. The time at which they are in is left up to the
school. If you do not have them in, this will be tabulated and
recorded and documented and used in Domain Five on your
assessment, which is a downward evaluation and poses a threat,
which I object to because no one stays on lesson plans. I think
you need some sort of goal, I thoroughly approve of objectives
as to what you wish to accomplish within your time frame. But
no one stays on them, and if one is late, that doesn't mean you
don't have one. We have experienced teachers in our building,
and they have more lesson plans in their heads than you could
write out if you spent a year writing them out. They know what
they're doing •••

As to the reforms, I guess I'm a revolutionary, and have
been somewhat lucky. I think I'm in charge of my classroom, and
so I take charge of it and I teach in charge of it. But as we
become more and more mandated, I am running into more and more
friction, and I do think teachers should be in charge of
teaching.

In the course of all of this, two things have come about
that I think are a little unique in Texas, maybe not in other
areas, but certainly in Houston. This year is the first time
that faculty members--myself and a couple of other people--have
been included on the agenda of the faculty meeting to conduct
the meeting. We have conducted two or three meetings this
year. We have been consulted even when not involved in the
meeting on the agenda and have been asked to be a resource
person to help solve problems--problems might not be the right
word--but if a teacher has a weakness, to help her--or
he--strenthen skills before it becomes a problem. We have been
asked to be used as a resource person to avoid problems. And I
think this is part of teachers being in charge of teaching arid,
in a way, I think it's a little takeover of some of the old
ground that administrators had.

Boger Glass: How
did that come about?
--::-r.-: piA sh '1

Thomas: I'mq;; ) jng'. [Laughter] It's something that has
occurred just in my school. It comes from the ER&D linkers and
activities in my school. This has come as an outgrowth of ER&D.

Jim Threinen: I'm Jim Threinen and I'm from Robbinsdale,
Minnesota. I teach in the Technology, Learning Campus, which is
a state technology demonstration site. It's a middle school
with 300 students and 14 full-time teaching staff. I have
taught 30 years, almost all in the science area.

I have to explain a little bit before I answer the question
"if empowered for change, what would I do?" Technology Learning
Campus is the outgrowth of an infusion of funds by the state
because they believed three years ago that technology would be a
welcome addition to the tools of instruction and they wanted to
know what was good and what was bad. So they established a
number of demonstration sites, two of which were schools. The
school was started new, very much like the Saturn project.


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There was no new building; they simply rented 14 rooms from the

community center, renovated them and asked the union for the

right to have teachers volunteer for the first year and thereby

bypass the voluntary pool. This was and is the only exception

to the master contract that was necessary.

Now we have participatory management; we have control of
performance review, we have control of staff development and
control of curriculum and we have the time available for it. It
costs $1,100 more per student--this is for the cost of more
planning time, more full-time teacher equivalents, either as
teachers or as paraprofessionals, and the technology is
expensive.

So I'm in the best of all worlds. But what I would do if
empowered to change is, after being here, I'd like to get staff
elsewhere in our district to be more aware of and more
interested in change, because ..•• it is interesting ••• any student
can be admitted to our school, and yet we do not have a waiting
list. Any staff member could have volunteered, and yet we
filled two positions from the involuntary pool. Yet I think
it's the best of all worlds, and the teachers who are there
think it's the best of all worlds. We have an outreach program
where we bring people from the rest of the district and they all
leave saying, "God, this is great," and that's the last we hear
from them.

The imperative for change is not evident in our district,
and I would like to build the need for the imperative for
change. But the fact of the matter is •.. and I'm a little
frightened by this whole thing. If I could use the parallel: We
are used to being sort of gardeners, with a rake and a hoe and
some seeds from last year and a little bit of old-fashioned
fertilizer and growing some crops that have been adequate until
recently ..•.I read A Nation at Risk and we read the AFT's "The
Revolution that is Overdue" and the Carnegie report--a bit
smugly--but we read it [laughter], and we were prepared for a
green revolution that might bring a rototiller and a front
loader and some hybrid seeds and maybe some chemicals. We
turned around and, my God, there was a bulldozer, an earth mover
and plants we've never seen before. And all that we recognize is
that there's still a little bit of old-fashioned fertilizer
mixed in there.

We are overwhelmed--at least I am overwhelmed--by the
magnitude of the task, because to see that task, you have to
back up and look at this nation as a whole, and I've had the
opportunity to do that. Mary [Granger] in Alabama telling me
stories •.•my God, I wouldn't even be in teaching, there's no way
I'd be in teaching in Alabama. And then I get the stories from
Louisiana and Utah, and I am absolutely apalled . .•.

So the imperative for change is the first thing I'd try to
get out there, and secondly, I'd like to see something like I'm
in now continue. It's sundown this year. The state has decided
that the "student at risk" is first priority, so my monies are
gone. We'll be absorbed back into the voluntary pool; I'll do
all right. But I see now that ER&D needs to be part of our
teaching centers.

I see \pOW that there is a tremendous need to share the


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vision. I see now that it's a national problem. I really fear

that the teachers in the district I come from may not be ready

to assume the role that is expected of them. I'm glad I will

only report to the leadership, and I'm not an officer ••.• I'm not
sure they've abandoned the tradition of killing the messenger
when the news is bad [laughter]--I would hate to be the one to

stand up and advocate, as [Albert] Shanker has courageously
done, a change on all these different levels: admission,
certification, instructional leaders, which means governance,
decision making, our relationship with the business community,
our relationship with the taxpayers. But if I had the money to
do it and the time to do it, I guess I would like to share the

vision and do more than just talk a good story, because I think
we need some people to go out and prosyletize this time.

This conference has done one thing ••. profoundly convinced me
that national need is far greater than any of us in Minnesota
need.

Roger Glass: I want to ask you something about this
participatory management. Why is that better?

Threinen: It's a difficult thing to analyze. Minnesota is
a state that has a tradition of support for education. We never
really ran into the situation that would bring about
revolution. We had a few benevolent dictators and monarchs, but
always we were there for the long haul and they were on their
way through. It's very hard for me to analyze why we are where
we ar.e and others are where they are. I don't know. I only
know that the tradition for supporting education in Minnesota is
very strong ••. in our legislature, the last thing they cut is
education and the first thing they restore is education. We
happen to be in economically distressed areas, which means they
can't do great things like raise us all to $60,000, but I am
confident that if they could, they would. I think we .have the
one thing that seems to be missing around this nation--we trust
that our citizens really believe that our most precious resource

is our children. And we have a tradition to support that.

Thomas: Which the rest of us don't have.

Threinen: But why not? That's why I've been taking my long
walks [at Airlie]. Why not? Where did that come from? If
somebody could sort that out for me ...I feel terribly
uncomfortable, almost guilty, about coming from Minnesota.

Deanna Woods: I think it has something to do with the fact
that we're over 200 years old as a nation and we've got about
half a million fads and people have seen too many things fail.
The problem has been in the process of developing those fads and
going through them is that we've done them wrong. It's time
that we stopped that process and we start doing everything
right.

Threinen: But it's far better to try to do something and
maybe do part of it wrong than it is to do nothing.


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Marsha Osborne: Part of the problem is that we've started

out to do so many things and God knows we've had good

intentions. We've started that Saturn project •..how long have

they spent planning that thing?

Tbreinen: They haven't even produced the car yet!

Woods: That's okay, they're taking the time; they're working
out every detail.

Threinen: Well, I'm not going to buy the first one, I'll
tell you that. [Laughter]

Osborne: We don't think things through carefully enough.
Oh, I pray that this works ••• you don't know how much I'm
depending that this really comes off. There's a part of me that
really is frightened. If we blow this one, we're done. We've
got this Carnegie Foundation, we've got all the right people
saying all the right things, the things we want to hear; we all
believe that this needs to happen. Now if we go at this the way
we've gone at everything e1se •••• I just see everybody out there
saying "we've got this momentum now, we can't lose it," but
we've got to make sure that we do this right. It's like
Rochelle said earlier, we've got to do this very, very slowly.
Yes we've got to keep the momentum, but if we just go through
this and do change just for the sake of change ••..

Woods: That ties in with what I am concerned about.

Interviewers: Wait, can you introduce yourself?

Woods: Let me make my statement, and then I'll introduce
myself, before I forget this! [Laughter] What I've seen in the

19 years that I've been a teacher is a number of component parts
of what we're proposing now and when those component parts have
been designed by the people who are the experts, the solvers,
who have the knowledge and the skills and the expertise to do
it, they did it right and all those compenent parts worked and
they worked right. The trouble is, we've never put all those
things together, and I want a package of reform~. I don't want
to do it "this way" this year and "this way" next year without
having it all part of a large plan.

Okay, my name is Deanna Woods [laughter] and I teach at
Wilson High School in Portland, Oregon. I teach high school
English, and I've taught at alll levels, freshmen through
seniors, extremely accelerated college-bound advanced placement
students ..• and the slow ones. As I said before, I've been in
the district 19 years, and the thing that saddens me is after
seeing all the fads come and go, and all the excitement build up
and fall again and watch something fade away, I go back after
this week into a situation that is actually worse than when I
started 19 years ago. It has not gotten any better, and it's
time that we did something right. If I were to go back to my
school and find myself empowered, one of the first things I
would do is form one of those Saturn groups, because I've seen


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something like that happen before in the school where I worked
previously. We had one and it worked for 10 years, and it was
within the department I was in--English--so I would establish a
Saturn group and I would start talking about what we could do to
get rid of those things or modify those things that keep us from
doing the job that we want to do, whi ch is t.each. That's the
bottom line. We walk into the classroom, we see those human
beings that we want to work with, and there are all those
interruptions--the people pounding on the door, the kids on the
fire escape going "whoops" all the time you're holding a
discussion, the class next door, which is separated only by a
thin door, which is drama, and they're fighting the battle of
Baton Rouge or something; the books that are never there in
sufficient quantity--all of those things--you can't find a
counselor to talk about a student you're very concerned about
because she or he is very busy with five or six hundred other
students, and your schedules don't match. All those things
should have been solved years ago, and aren't. There are the
same ones that I found 19 years ago, and they can be solved,
because I've seen some of that kind of thing happen.

Now, there are all other kinds of things. I've spent five
years of my 'life reading all the reform reports .•.what I've
learned is that if you put these things together, there are
ways, I repeat, of solving the problem. I've watched top
quality teachers come; they get discouraged and leave. I don't
want that to happen anymore. I've watched children enter those
classrooms and get discouraged and leave. I don't want that to
happen anymore. I want to see that as a union, we spread the
word about these things •.. how they can work, how they actually
apply to the classroom and that the excitement that we get in
teaching is something that we can maintain. This is a necessary
cost. I'm coming to the point where I'm afraid, too, that if we
don't do something now and do it right, that this is the last
opportunity we'll ever have.

Threinen: We are at the teachable moment.

Woods: That's right.

Threinen: Let's do' it.

Basil Thomas: May I make a statement? [Gesturing to Jim
Threinen] I really think that what you've said in Minnesota is
the basis of this whole reform--that your legislature and your
citizens firmly believe in the value of education--that a key
issue in all of these reports, that you believe in the value of
education, and not just a little song and dance number or lip
service that our children are our main resources, but an actual
realization that they ARE the only resource that needs
continuing and 100 percent of our concentration ..••

Julie Hess: I'm Julie Hess of the Toledo, Ohio, schools. My

first 11 years of teaching were all in the primary grades, and

the last 15 years I have been a teacher consultant for
elementary teachers in our voluntary assistance peer program.


Airlie interview/Question 1: Empowerment/8

So my response is probably going to be a bit broader based.
Coming from Toledo, I guess we are very fortunate, because we
have so many things in place that are already being talked about
at this conference, what is being suggested to be done. We have
them. We have hardly an area or subject in the school sytem
where there is not teacher input into the decision--curriculum,
staff development, school policy such as discipline, I mean, we
are everywhere. Our teachers have the right to be there and
they are appointed through the union.

Therefore I guess my response would be that I would never
want our staff to take this for granted. It is a right that
they have earned--it has really given them a large step toward
being professional, of being autonomous. That does not mean
that there are not needs and problems to deal with ...•certainly
the issue of class size is still there. One of the [other]
great needs that exists is one-to-one tutoring for the child
that is having difficulty. It is not always the child that is
pulled out for the compensatory programs but the child perhaps
doesn't qualify. We have pretty good planning time, but I still
think that that is something that is underestimated and needs to
be looked at--a chance for people to get together and plan and
share their ideas.

Roger Glass: You said that teachers in Toledo "earned" the

right to participate. What did you mean by "earned?"
Hess: They had been through a couple of
embarassing school closings because of lack
through a time when education was valued
where your mouth is .•. this kind of thing.
strikes and
of money.
but you don't
Through our
We
put
went
money

negotiation process, through job action, through collective
bargaining, through the things that one has to go through to
gain certain rights. We've been through that.

Glass: Do administrators recognize that by giving teachers
the right to be more participatory that it's helped the whole
school system?

Hess: Yes and no. For some administraotrs who are still
concerned with power or who might have been someone who didn't
teach very long themselves and really wanted out of the
classroom or perhaps was not a good teacher, they might have
some difficulty with it. It would depend on the specific area
or the particular administrator. One· administrator told me very
emphatically before I left for the conference, "You make sure
you tell them down there that this is one administrator who
believes that the union has to be involved in school reform."
Even with this kind of cooperation that we now have, you
shouldn't be naive to think that you still don't get into
adversarial positions. You do, and you deal with them
acccordingly.


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Airliue interview/Question 2: colleagues/l

TRISH GORMAN: I want to follow up on something somebody said and
that is sort of our second question. Now that you've
transformed your schools, what about your fellow teachers? A
lot of teachers complain about how terrible things are, and yet
when you start talking about big changes, they get very nervous.
They say it's too risky, it's too much responsibility, it~s not
my job, the union is getting in over its head. Think about your
colleagues back in the classroom--how would they react to this,
and how would you go about convincing them that this is the
right way to go?

WOODS: Actually, returning to Wilson [her high school], I found

that sometimes it just takes somebody willing to say, "Okay,
we're sick of this situation and we know we can do something
about it." You start with a process and build onto it.

HUTCHERSON: In my area, if I returned with the reform, it would
depend on my marketing skills. You know your leaders because
you've been there so long, and you go to your leaders and you
promote this and they buy into it. When they buy into it they
sell it to someone else and eventually you become a group of
strong people who are willing to change the system. You must
understand, we know what it's like there. We all are
uncomfortable for one reason or another, so therefore you don't
need a sledge hammer, but you have to [do it] slowly. You can't
come in there and say, "Okay, we're going to turn this whole

thing upside down and start over again."
if you take it slowly and you use your myou can pull it off.
That won't sell.
arketing skills, I
But
think
WOODS: You have to be good teachers ••• of adults.

OSBORNE: Yes. If people have faith ••• your peers ... like we said
this morning, we know who the good teachers are. No one has to
come and tell us who the good teachers are, because you can tell
by the way their classes walk down the hall, by the way they
speak to children. I'm a firm believer that if we try to take
this back out to the public and if we push too hard, I'm afraid
we're going to turn everybody off. I'm a firm believer in
working from within the system. We've got a lot of things about
education that are right. I'm very proud of my school; I think
we have an excellent faculty and an excellent administrator. I
hear some people talking about their administrators, and he does
not do some of the things to ~eachers that others do.

GORMAN: That's true, incidentally of most teachers who are
polled •.•• They actually like their administrators.


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Airli~e interview/Question 2: colleagues/2

OSBORNE: Right. I think we have to build on what's going
right. He does include us in some of the decision-making
processes. He asks for our opinions. As long as schools are a
team •••he gets 110 percent out of us. He knows how to handle
people. But I'm sensitive to those people who don't come from
those kinds of environments. You have to find out where you are
and work for change from within the system. If we try to come
in and throw the baby out with the bath water, change everything
at once, we're going to get nowhere •

. HUTCHERSON: I also think you have to customize your

restructuring. There are administrators who are excellent and

that you really want to involve in your restructuring process~

but there are other administrators whom you want to manage

paperwork and things like that •••. if you're allowed to do

it••• now that we're talking about reform and anything goes.

THOMAS: Earlier I mentioned the growth process, and if I took

this changing the school, and I'll use the word change rather

than restructure, my faculty would by and large be in favor of

it. Of course we've already started a slight--or maybe not so

slight--revolution in my school. We decided two years ago--we

being the teachers--that if we were doormats, we really couldn't

blame other people if they walked on us. So, we have stopped

being doormats, and that is probably one of the reasons that

membership in HFT is three-fifths [of faculty] in my building,

that it's that high. It's seeking to improve our own

self-image, self respect, [that] we have developed attitudes of

self-worth, which teachers need to be aware of.

I have gone to administrators and pointed out to them--which

fortunately they have bought~-that if all of us do well on the

assessments and do various good things, they look better, our

school looks better. The reason for their salary and our salary

is student achievement. If we can show that, we're in a much

better position.

I'm getting ready to drop a little hand grenade on them--our

school in tests results has moved up four points. And while

they really aren't giving the teachers and the dissemination

[ER&D] program credit for that, I'm going to point out that

three-fifths of our faculty is involved in some benefit from

research dissemination. Therefore, that four-point growth,

while it isn't a tremendous amount, is a beginning and has been

enough to call attention to our school downtown. I think since

it is a growth process, my faculty would very much be in favor

of change--now not throw the entire thing out, but certainly

change, modify, restructure, as long as it were in a growth

process.

GORMAN: If I could press a little on this •••. some of the
comments that we had from the field indicate there is still
reluctance about change, that there are many teachers who just
want to go to work [or say] "just let me alone, I don't want all
these crazy changes, I don't want to work these extra hours for
extra money, I like the way it's struct-ared now." How do you


Airli~e interview/Question 2: colleagues/3

respond to that? Or, first of all, do you think that that's not

true [and] that most people really do want change?

THOMAS: Speaking for those in my building, we would rather not

have to do it. But rather than continue with the current or

present condition, we are willing to do it and see a need to do

it.

GORMAN: What if it would mean, though, changing hours? What if

it would mean changing time off in the summer?

THOMAS: My answer is the same. We would rather not have to go

through the effort, but the present system is working to a point

but it is not working to either the administration's complete

satisfaction or to our complete satisfaction. So to have the

input and the control, our building would be willing to do it.

HUTCHERSON: I'm saying something different. Increasing my day
or increasing my year will not necessarily make this a better
program~ what I'm saying is give me a chance to help change what
I have right now, without those increases. Research says that ~
an increased day or increased year has not made anything better.
I want to go through other changes before I add to my day or add
on to my year. Let me go in and be apart of the decision
making, and if that doesn't work, then I'll reconsider.

And to the gentleman from Minnesota [gesturing to Jim
Threinen] ••• I want for my system what you say you have for your
system. That's why we want reform and change. We want what you
have. You were saying why don't other districts have it.••• The
money isn't there, we have poor economic conditions .•••

THREINEN: It's won't be there for us, either. That's why we're

envying Toledo [laughter]. Theirs looks permanent.

HESS: I think you're right about the marketing. It depends on
what idea you're pursuing~ you don't pursue an idea just to
pursue it. Some of the things that we have came out of real
problems and needs that existed before education reform was even
being talked about. In order for some of this to occur, you
have to survey teachers, you have to have committees, because
how is one going to want to be part of decision making if they
are never given the opportunity and training to do it. Our
teachers now have been in decision making for so long that if
the administration does not follow the process, they will not
use or do what comes out of the committee that has not followed
the procedure. They are that far along, because they have had
several years of being involved in decision making.

Somtimes you may have to do something in a "pilot" manner,
try it out. ~ It depends on what you are pursuing. Just to
pursue reform for reform in of itself won't be successful.

WOODS: We've got to remember that we're not working in a
vacuum. We may want to avoid change within our schools, but the
problem is that there are things going on outside of ttS. Our
economy and our society is changing on us, and the children
we're serving are changing. We have to address those very real


Air1ife interview/Question 2: co11eagues/4

and changing needs, and the schools we have now are not equipped
to do that. That's the reason we talk about restructuring.

HESS: I also think sometimes you have to have the guts to stand

up ••• your key people who are the 1eaders ••• in front of your

people and say, "You're going to have to consider this," you've

got to have the courage to do it. You might get the tomatoes

thrown at you, but you're not a leader if you can't do it.

THREINEN: You talk about your~19 years [gesturing to Deanna
Woods]. One has to fight cynicism and paranoia in this
business. I say if you've been teaching 10 years and you're not
paranoid, you don't understand [laughter]. The ER&D model is a
sound model and the way to proceed. We took vo1unteers--high
credibi1ity--and we gave them information on the needs,
research, and set up the mechanism for dissemination. What we
have to make very c1ear--it's what Al Shanker talked about--if
you wan't more salary, it means we must professionalize. If you
want job satisfaction, you have to get higher status. On the
negative side, the plight of education means privatization. Now
if we can get those points a~ross, I think the movement will
begin, albeit slowly. Once it starts--2.3 million teachers are
an incredible mass with an incredible inertia--there are no
school boards, there are no legislatures that can withstand it.

We've seen it.
WOODS: And we have to stop expecting overnight success.
THREINEN:
long time
basically
need some
It has been said that 10 years in education is not
period. That's what it takes to move students
through the system. That's not a big time period.
patience.
a
We


Airlie interview/ Questions 3 _: preparation a-ftS Q!lallla~i8n/1

ROGER GLASS: A lot of the discussion, particularly in the
Carnegie forum's report, focuses on teaching as a profession,
particularly those coming into the profession. There has been
criticism about the quality of those coming in. What do you
think of the suggestion--although it's more than a suggestion
now--the Carnegie forum has established a committee to develop a
national test. What are the things that are needed to improve
teacher preparation, or is it even true that teachers coming in
today are not prepared as well as they should be?

GORMAN: And what was your experience in your own teacher

preparation?

WOODS: Close to abysmal.

THOMAS: What was that an answer to?

WOODS: Are teachers prepared today? Were they prepared 19 years
ago? Nineteen years ago it was close to abysmal. Now it's a
little bit better. I was on a college evaluation team and had
an opportunity to look very closely at what was going on, and
what I discovered was--and to be fair I also looked at the
resumes for two other universities that train students--that the
vast majority of the people, if they had any K-12 experience at
all, have had it 20 years ago. These are people who are
supposedly teaching classroom management skills, and they are
teaching out of outdated and incomplete books.

There was a survey given and finally a conference given for
beginning teachers one year after they had begun their teaching
experience, and they were asked "How effective was your
training?" They said some parts of it were very good, but the
practical stuff was missing. They didn't know how to deal with
the parents, they didn't know how to deal with their colleagues
or their principals effectively, and they were not prepared to
deal with discipline problems in the classroom.

OSBORNE: And yet we've got this model in place that tells them
about ••. you talk about the stuff that was outdated ••.well the
ER&D--I hate to keep harping about ER&D--but this was my thing.
We've got this model in place, and very often the establishment,
simply because it's a union program, feels threatened by it, by
the ER&D program. Why in heaven's name could they possibly feel
threatened by this program, whose wnole premise is simply to
give you the latest research information and let you share how
to implement it? So the bottom line is that they are afraid
that we're going to get everyone in a room and use it as a gripe
session. They're threatened also by the fact that it is a
tremendous organizing tool. It is the only reason why I'm in
the union today. I'm a real team player. And yet this is the
complaint we get from teachers, that we don't have enough


Airlie interview/ Questions 3~: preparation ea~i!=J~.."1~a""~1/2

practical ••••Everyone whose ever been involved in the program

has said how fantastic it is, and yet we're not allowed to use

it to the extent that we could to achieve the gains that we

ought to.

HUTCHERSON: When I went to my guidance counselor in high school,
she helped me decide to go into teaching because she said, well,
try the armed servies--that's what they told the boys--or
nursing or secretary. I mean, black people were channelled into
certain areas. I was going to school and teaching happened to
be a professional area ••. so we opted for ..•very bright students
went into teaching because of the direction we were sent.
Consequently, we burned down a couple of
cities••• [laughter] ••• take that off [the record]! We've had
changes over the years and had an opportunity to go into other
areas. Some of the brightest people are going into business and
other areas, and the leftover folk are going into teaching, and
I'm not so sure the quality ••• or the preparation ••. is there.
I'm not sure where to put the blame.

OSBORNE: I don't think we should be placing blame.

WOODS: Let's talk about what we can do to improve it.

OSBORNE: I think education was created by a lot of well-meaning
people who thought they were doing the right thing at the time.

HUTCHERSON: I'm dealing from a black perspective. We were sent
certain places, we were channelled into this particular
profession. So it didn't matter how bright you were, you were
just sent into this area. Now some people knew different and
went other places, but as it stands now, the business world has
opened up for black people, all these other worlds have opened
up, all these fancy words that we didn't know anything about.
I'm not sure who's going into teaching now and I'm not sure also
if the criteria is high enough for teaching as it is for some of
these other areas. I do think we should raise the level of
education and the course of study, and the evaluation process.
That's one of the reforms.

GLASS: Wouldn't this national test be one way of addressing the
criteria question? Like a board ... like what a law student would
take?

THREINEN: Has it produced better lawyers? I'll turn the
question back on you. I disagree with the premise. I think that
perhaps we should rest our case on the fact that the law
profession has tried it, and it has not necessarily produced
better lawyers--certainly not more ethical ones.

I believe that this AFT task force report is, in this
particular case, correct. The fact that it's incomplete is to
our benefit. Perhaps we should let the colleges teach that part
of teaching which is the science, the subject matter. We trust
they have professional standards there and


Airlie interview/ Questions 3 ...: preparation ens euaitl&lIlten/3

that they will not let go through the net students who are

inadequate. But, the art is ours, and they should come through
our teaching centers and our schools to receive from us who are
·here the components of that art, to practice that art and to be

evaluated on it, and if we do not certify them, they are not

there. That's where we lack the power in teaching. We have

lots of bright people who are basket cases in this profession

because they have the science; they do not have the art, for

whatever reason.

GORMAN: So the national test isn't going to solve that problem?

THREINEN: No, it isn't going to solve that problem.

THOMAS: Would you allow me--without a battle--to change a word?

Instead of the word art, the craft of teaching. And I would

agree with you almost straight down the line.

THREINEN: See me after my long walk. [Laughter]

GORMAN: But you have to have somethin.g objective.

THREINEN: Yes, and I think those we do have.

GLASS: Such as?

THREINEN: In teaching, one of the things that is important is
that you take the techniques and bring the subject alive. If
you can't, you'll hear the heads thump in regular rhythym as you
start to convey the body of knowledge. There are techniques for
meeting learning styles. There are techniques for ensuring that
career awareness is there. There are techniques for
demonstrating to students that there is a technique for
searching out information. There are ways of challenging the
gifted and talented, and there are ways of achieving learner
outcome. All of these are within the realm of instruction that
are known to people who are staff today, who are in the
profession.

THOMAS: I would disagree again. Techniques, yes, as taught,
but again, a craftsman is a skilled worker who loves his work,
and if you want me to be a mechanic and use my hands on the
machinery, I can do that, and I can study the techniques, and
your car won't run and I'll have to. go to the hospital to have
my hands repaired, because I'm awkward with machinery. And yet
you can give me a piece of clay, and I can come out with
something. Whether or not it's art, I'm not sure, but I can
produce, through a technique and a certain .amount of skill and
love or dedication, something of value. Of course, a technique
that is just a technique has no life. A craftsman is not a
machine, nor is he a dead person. But an artist is great
talent, applied craft. If we are to be assessed as teachers,
there's no way to assess artistry, and whether or not it is art
is purely a subjective thing in whoever views you are assesses
you. But certainly on the other hand you are valid--we don't


Airlie interview/ Questions 3 c::=t: preparation aRe aHa'" 11/4

want these heads to be thumping. Whether you use technique or
craft, it's a matter of semantics. But the heads must stay up:
there must be interest in the activity going on both from the
student and the instructor. If you don't have that, it's a
waste of everyone's time. But you do have to objectively

evaluate in some manner what you are doing, and art, talent,
cannot be measured. You have it, you don't have it. But craft
can be measured and can produce results.
THREINEN: Would you consider ER&D a craft.
THOMAS: I consider a lot of it craft, yes sir. Now I do not

consider it a dead technique. It is a procedure, but not a

uniform pattern. You [gesturing to Hutcherson] have used

customizing, which is individualizing it to your own particular

style. Now I don't consider style a talent. It's that ability

to put together what works well, is efficient for you and looks

good on you, if you want to keep it in the realm of clothing.

The same in the classroom•••you can put together a variety of

procedures, some of which I may totally ignore, but we can come

up with end results that are measurable and the same.

GORMAN: Suppose the test was just one part?

THOMAS: Which test?

GORMAN: All right ••• a new, national exam••• but it's only one
piece of what I think the reform thing is, which is internships
or some thing like that.

THOMAS: The national test has a lot of problem with states
giving up the right to educate, so we're involved here in a
~olitical issue as well as an educational issue. I still think
teachers should be in charge of teaching. I do agree that
teachers should have a broad-based, general education--four
complete years--before they ever enter a college of education.
I disagree on trusting colleges of education, because there have
been inequities of any number of things that went on. My
students change, and I have to continually see if what I am
producing is what I have set out to produce or accomplish. But
I do think that at the end of that college of education, there
should be an exit test, and before they are certified, I do
think very firmly there should be an internship.

GORMAN: What was your first year of teaching like?

,

THREINEN: They threw me the keys and said, "It's room 2271"
[Laughter]

THOMAS: Mine was different. I had six years of college, two
years of education, a year and a half of internship, and that
was over 30 years ago. It just happened that I was assigned as
a student teacher to a teacher, and the college insisted that we
stay with our supervising teacher for the length of time that


Airlie interview/ Questions 3 11m: preparation n 7 7 pti sn/5

supervisor thought was necessary to get all the information
about the subject. It wasn't a reflection that you were slow or
fast. I was lucky•••• I had not only the kids in the classroom,
I had awareness of school boards, a little knowledge of taxes
and a lot of knowledge of how very special every parent's child
in the classroom was and they couldn't possibly not have
accomplished what you wanted! [laughter]

HESS: If I could pick up on teacher preparation: There is a

real need for training in [classroom] management, which we are

locally trying to plug in the ER&D [program] with the two

universities. We are having difficulty doing this •.• I'm sure

this is the turf question that comes up. But there is a real

need--we surveyed teachers. Also, for a lot of people in the

classroom, they don't know how to plan, they don't know how to

organize. That may not sound like much if you're a planner and

an organizer, but it does make a difference.

I think we need to get back to the point where those who are
training teachers at the college level have to themselves been
in the classroom. I think we've gone through a period of time
where we've had incoming teachers who have been trained by
college people who have not been in the classroom or who have
spent a very short time [there]. We have to have an ongoing
exchange at the college level and the local level, because they
need to know from us what worked and what didn't in the
training. A dialogue has to be there. They need to set up more
laboratory settings.

WOODS: I advocate specifically the teacher testing. I believe
in the national board because ••• I like Plato, I agree with him
that you need some kind of standard, some measure by which you
can judge what you're doing. Now in 1979, NeATE (check
initials), which was supposed to set standards for a large
number of colleges, had a self-assessment done, and the
assessment said that their standards were so low it was worse
than having no standards at all. So, educators themselves were
setting extremely low standards. Our people were going from
those teacher training colleges into baths of fire. It's a
miracle they stayed there. Now they don't have to stay there~
that'another thing we have to concern ourselves with.

Now the schools I referred to before were not all total
failures. People went in there and said, "Yes, I was prepared
in a lot of different ways for my classroom," but the point is
that for years we've had the tools, ,the instruments, the
research, the experience to m~e it better, and we haven't done
that. We share a certain amount of guilt for that~

HESS: I think, too, that we're at a point where we're going to
have to give it a chance to see whether it does makes any
difference, ensuring that you have the correct teacher input so
that it's put together correctly, so that it is monitored, and
that it isn't just one component.

WOODS: We can learn from the mistakes of the legal profession
and the medical profession. We can learn from the mistakes of
the past. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to
repeat it.


i J o,.J "vJuJr'~

Airlie interview/Question'S: Pay schemeo//l •

I'

GORMAN: The next question is a tough one for us as a union.
There's a lot of pressure in states and some districts for
teachers to accept pay schemes that are based on some sort of
merit rating or career ladder or at least differentiates.
Obviously, some schemes are really quite bad. But overall,
there's an idea out there, and I want to hear what you think
about it. Is it a loser--obviously it depends on how you phrase
it--or it is something that is necessary to keep teachers in the
classroom••• ls it a political necessity in order to get the
money out of the state or the district?

THOMAS: Have they given up tarring and feathering? [Laughter] If
they have, I'm going to make a statement. If they haven't, I'm
going to be quiet.

GLASS: We're not doing any today, so you're safe.

THOMAS: Well, all of these terms, to many of the teachers,
myself included, are like waving a flag in front of the bull,
and you're going to end up with some type of charge. Merit pay
I don't like; most methods of putting people on career ladders
are subjective in the assessment, and I don't per se object to a
career ladder, but I do object a great deal to the procedures
and the assessment instruments, because I haven't seen one yet
that is·...... objective.

Now the only way to have equality in pay is to give everyone
the same thing, and yet I don't think that's an answer, because
no matter how good a teacher is--and let's be fair, most
teachers are trying to be good, and I think most teachers are
good or working very hard to become better--the flat truth is,
they are not the same. Some are better craftsmen, because they
have a degree of art or talent that produces better results. So
I don't think to give everyone the same pay for the same thing
is the answer, either. I'm doing something I object to other
people doing: If you criticize, you should have something to
offer in its place, and I really feel that very validly. So if
these are my only three choices--and I don't like any of
them--it would be a type of career ladder or steps that would
involve an assessment, being fully aware that there is the
subjective danger in assessment. I can't buy equal pay for
everyone. There should be, in some manner, a reward for
excellence. I don't think that merit pay is the answer, because
there's too much favoritism, or misuse if you like.

In view of the fact that teachers are really making an
effort to be good teachers, this should not be a threatening
thing, but used as an awareness that if you get to this level,
you have attained a certain degree of excellence.

HUTCHERSON: Do you have one of these things in operation in
Toledo?


4' ~~~


Airlie interview/Question '5: Pay schemes/2

HESS: Well, we are basically opposed to merit pay. We do have a
committee that is doing very extensive work and research on a
career ladder plan, and what they will look at is a voluntary
type of situation, and there would be certain criteria involved,
and duties. Could I say something as long as your tape is off?

VOICES: It's not. Never mind, it's off the record but on the

tape. [Laughter]

HESS: Well, anyway.•••This is a good example of the kind.of

issue that is very controversial, so what you are dealing with

and how you are dealing with it, you are very careful. I would

not he able to say certain things about what the committee is

putting together, because it is not time yet •••• the membership

has to be at a certain place before that can transpire. So it

really is in the committee process at this point.

HUTCHERSON: There are just so many loopholes and problems.
We're afraid of it; we are frightened. We can see all the
pitfalls, so we back off. Especially teachers--because of
competition, cheating, it brings about thing we really don't
want to get involved in, unless it's well done, well structured.

GORMAN: To follow up quickly before we go on to the next
question •••• In the shortage areas, it is happening in districts
where this is a shortage of, say, science teachers, and they are
willing to pay them more, bring them in at a higher scale. How
do you handle that? How do you tell a Latin teacher they're
going to bring a math teacher in at a higher scale.

THOMAS: Carefully. [Laughter]

HUTCHERSON: We proposed that in one of our sessions dealing
with the Newark school system, and it was totally rejected,
because teachers won't appreciate that. But, if there is a
shortage of math teachers, what was proposed was that the
teacher who does have the math certification will work with

larger numbers [of students] but paraprofessionals will be hired
to help this person and the person will get more money for the
supervisory task of monitoring the paraprofessional. That
wasn't opposed.

I

GORMAN: But you do get to a point, though--and this happens in
New York City--where you get this huge shortage of math and
science teachers, to the point where even if you put 40 kids or
45 kids in, you still don't have enough teachers, 'and then you
face the problem of bringing in out-of-license teachers. If you
are a superintendent, you've got this problem--you have x number
of vacancies for math and science teachers, and what are you
going to do? How is the union going to respond?

OSBORNE: Okay, math a science may not be a shortage field
forever. I disagree with putting them at a different level,
because once you put them in, they progress from there. If you
have to go to that, then giving them an extra supplement as long


ff

Airlie interview/Question'S: Pay schemes/3

as it's a shortage area ••• I teach exceptional education. Some

areas of exceptional education were a shortage area, but are no

longer.

GORMAN: Is it that simple? If they're one of your memb~s, how

are you going to go to them and say, "Well, now you're going to

lose it [the supplement], it's not a shortage area anymore"?

OSBORNE: If they go in with the understanding that we're just
doing this to build up the ranks of this critical shortage area,
and when we have done this, this will be removed. If you do it
any other way ••••

HESS: I was going to say, we had the same thing, and we took it
a different way and expanded it in a different way. We, too,
had at one time a shortage in special education, so they did
receive an additional increment. Then we took the idea and
expanded it to go along with specialization. To encourage
teachers, [we said that] you don't go out and get your master's
degree in administration and supervision; if you want to remain
in the classroom, then you should be specializing in math or
reading or special ed. So we broadened it so that, say, if I
did specialization or graduate work in reading, I, too, received
the increment, so that it flattened it out. It was never taken
away.

OSBORNE: Or instead of paying the supplement while you're

teaching it, paying the supplement for the people to get the

additional education that's needed.

THOMAS: We have that plan in place: shortage areas get a
stipend, until this year, with the oil price drop, some of them
have been cut, but some are still in place. There is resentment
of it. There is no resentment if they go back for
specialization, because they have made a special effort and
[that] is thoroughly deserving. The shortage area does exist
and principals do have a problem, but the way the union would
look at that is simply this way: the union is there for the
interests of their teachers, and that is an administration
problem. If they want to attract more teachers, then find some
manner in their budget to focus on the purpose of
education--student learning--and provide the necessary money
that will attract the teachers.

GORMAN: But do you think that's realistic, to have the
administration handle the problem, that it's "not our problem?"

THOMAS: Now I didn't say it wasn't our problem •••.Well, yes
did. My viewpoint, though •••we should be involved in it, but if
it comes to a choice, our responsibility is to our member.

GORMAN: But if the alternative is to hire a teacher out of
license or lower the standards •••.

THOMAS: Don't hire them.


(I-


Airlie interview/Question'S: Pay schemes/4

GORMAN: What do you do with the 35 students that don't have a

math teacher?

HUTCHERSON: In New Jersey, we have a program in place called an
alternate route teacher, and this is a person who has a degree.
Let's say you have a degree in chemistry, but you're not a
teacher. So you come into the system as a chemistry teacher,
closely monitored--almost as an internship--with a neighboring
teacher and enrolled in a college for teacher credits, until you
get your teacher certification.

GORMAN: It's driving the higher education people crazy ••••

HUTCHERSON: Oh •••• yes.

HESS: When we did have that special ed. shortage and that

increment, our other people did resent it [but] that was

ultimately our creative way of dealing with it. It turned out

actually to be a good thing, because it led us into the

specialization thing.

GORMAN: So, in other words, how you handled it was you did

provide additional money for the shortage area, but you sort of

parlayed that into a larger career ladder program.

HESS: Yes.

ROGER GLASS: I want to ask about peer evaluation. Can you

briefly tell us how you stand or how your colleagues stand on
this: Do they support the idea?

OSBORNE: If we could use the word mentor--any time you get into
people evaluating--I know what you're saying. I'm not the best
teacher that I could be. I like to think that I'm pretty good,
but I know I've got things to learn. I think if we can think
about peers as the wealth of experience that we can learn from
and get away from evaluation •••• but on the other hand, the
present system is not working; there's too much evaluation being
done by principals who've been out of the classroom for 15 or 20
years.

WOODS: I like the idea of peer evaluation, quite frankly,
because I had it earlier on when I started teaching. There was
a department chairman who didn't know that she wasn't supposed
to do that [laughter], and so she came in and observed me and
did an evaluation that was far more helpful than what I got from
the principal, who came in and observed me while I was
administering a test and said I had great rapport with students

[laughter]. I would favor the Toledo plan [internships
supervised by consulting teachers] for the first year; second,
it would be helpful if people in the building served as peer
coaches and give some feedback. That would not have to be a
formal process; as a matter of fact, I think it's wisest if it's
not. I would like it if somebody from the district at large
came in and evaluated me so that I had something concrete that


..

(I

Airlie interview/Question-S: Pay schemes/S

would help me improve as an English teacher--emphasis on both of
those things. I know I have good rapport with the students.

THOMAS: I'm resentful of being judged ••• by anybody. In the last
few years, I've had three different types of assessment
instruments to be measured by. I have 30 students each class,
five times a day--they judge me. I have approximately 60
parents for each of those 30 that judge me; my graduates go out
into the public, and I am judged. I even now at this time--I've
been around so long--grandchildren that have come back. I think
teachers are judged enough.

Now, all through your comments, Deanna, you have mentioned
peers as a resource. I think peers are an excellent resource,
an excellent aid to improve, but not to write or create any type
of judgment. We have mentioned the plan presented to us the
first evening we were here--the self-evaluation. I would prefer
to change that word to self-help. I'm sick to death of the
words judge and evaluate, and that may be an emotional response.

WOODS: I would not use the word judge at all. I like the idea
of two evaluation systems--and I use evaluation as a
constructive approach--I think there ought to be a Toled~ level,
where you're dealing with the first-year teacher and helping
that person grow, as well as screening out people who really
should not continue. The second mode is evaluation of the
tenured teacher, whose major purpose is for professional
growth. Period. We're not talking about conditions of
dismissal--for that you have the intervention program.

THOMAS: Well, power corrupts. Anyone who evaluates and judges

tends to think they're a power element. Using your terms, I

totally agree with you.

HUTCHERSON: There's some problems in education. We've found
that out. Now, there are some incompetent teachers out there,
and we have to do something. We can't hard-line some issues and
soft-pedal other issues. We have to decide that •.•. there's a
lovely lady down the hall who's been teaching for 20 years, and
some way she's squeezed through the cracks all these yeas, but
she's really not doing the job. Now what are we going to do
about it? Someone is either going to evaluate her ••••we have to
screen her out, we have to do something. We cannot say let's
change education and come through with all these reforms but
let's leave these terrible teachers in. We have to do something
about it if we really want some say~so in our profession.

,

THOMAS: As a starter, the ER&D, as peers to help them, if that
fails, then as the Saturn program presented itself for a
screening-out to where you help them in some manner become aware
that they need to leave.

HUTCHERSON: Okay, Basil, you know what it sounds like? It's

like the mother at home with the children and they've done

terrible things all day long, and she says, "Wait until your

father gets home." What you're saying is that we'll give peer


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A1r'1"1e 1nterv1ew'/Quest10n~~: Pay schemes/ 6

assistance, we'll talk about it, we'll do all these things, but

if you don't measure up, who's going to get rid of her? The

principal? Then you pass the buck to the administration.

Suppose they really have to go?

THOMAS: Let me ask you one question. "They have to go" is our
premise. Now, let's come back to, as a union member, let's come
back to two words: Have they been offered due process under
their hiring system? Did that due process include some
assistance for correction? If the answer is yes, then as hard
as that may be, then life is hard--we're sinking to platitudes
[laughter]--and'we're sorry they have to go, but go they must.
Our prime purpose for being in school is for the students to
learn, and they are defeating the purpose of the school.

HUTCHERSON: But now, who does it? The peer review panel that

has done all of these things here, or••••

THOMAS: The system that is in place. If it is in my school, in
this case, it would have to be the principal. If it is in
another school, with assistance, it would have to be the
committee.

HUTCHERSON: Does the Toledo plan terminate?

HESS: Yes ••• for the intern teacher. It is dealt with by the
intern panel. For the intervention, which is the experienced
teacher"the consulting teacher works with that teacher and
makes a report. There is not the same kind of time limit. It
then reverts to the personnel department to do what they
want •••what the program shows us that, unfortunately, there are
some people who do not belong in teaching, even if they want to
teach.

WOODS: If we do our job as educators of ensuring that teacher
preparation is what it should be, that the internships are in
place, that the screening process does its job, then we're going
to be able to concentrate and look at tenured teacher evaluation
as a professional growth thing.


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Airlie interview/Question 6: The Union/l

GORMAN: I have one final question, which has two parts. You've

spent a week here being bombarded with this big dose of

education reform. Now you've got to go back and figure out what

to do with it. What have you learned here, first of all ••.• one

thing that would be your message? The next question has to do

with the union. The AFT has been pretty receptive to

reform--some have argued that it has been too accommodating--and

that we need to stick to traditional union issue. My question

is, is the union going in the right direction?

OSBORNE: By moving more into professional issues?

GORMAN: Yes, implementing education reform •••• it is not without
its pain, in terms of bring'~Jpeople along.

/'.

OSBORNE: Yes. The biggest complaint as building rep that I get
by people who don't want to join the union is that we here to
protect Joe Schmuck down the hallway who knows the contract
backwards and forwards and uses the union to protect his

incompetence •••• I'm s,orry that that happens, but that's the side ~
of the union they see. What do we have to counter that with?
To prove to you that that is not what the union is or stands

for, here we have the ER&D and the Carnegie planning board and
all the other things that the union is doing. I think what
we're talking about is the survival of the union, and I'm
not--you guys won't like this--but I'm really not a deep-down
union person •••• just because my focus is elsewhere or I don't
have the background. I am a professional issues person. That's
where my total focus is, and that's where you're going to get
your other [members].

The other thing •••you asked what we learned ••• I think the
union has to allow us ••• if we want to make this a profession
then we have to be accountable. That was our issue that we
talked about until 9:30 last night--accountability. I came away
from that •••• there's a fear on the part of teachers about
accountability, but accountability can be our greatest friend.
If we can demonstrate to the public that we are accountable,
just like a business has to demonstrate that they are showing
fiscal responsibility, that's where we're going to gain public
support. Public support means money. They're not going to
throw good money after bad. So how do we demonstrate
accountability in education? Well, we do all the things we've
been talking about today. We make sure the teachers coming in
are competent, that we increape the standards for teacher
college education. You know, medical school is not an easy
thing to get through. The result is a doctor, who is
responsible for people's lives. Teachers college should not be
an easy thing to get through. We are responsible for children's
lives. That should not be an easy degree to get nor should it
be something that we're not paid well for doing. Yes, I think


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Airlie interview/Question 6: The Union/2

we should test our new teachers, to demonstrate that the people

coming in are competent and know their field. Yes, we want to

have continued growth. If we can demonstrate that we have all

these things in place, then we're demonstrating to the public

that we're taking responsibility for being accountable. I feel

very strong that teaching right now is not a profession. We've

got to do those things.

WOODS: I agree with almost all of what you said. The only

thing ••• I'm more a union member than you may be.

OSBORNE: Then you've probably had a different history.

WOODS: Yes. I think that's the thing. I agree that we have to

be changing and that we're going in the right direction. We're

not a very old union ••. how many years are we, when were we born,

1918, 19l7?

GORMAN: 1916.

WOODS: 1916. So we're only about 70 years old. We're in the

process of growth and as union leaders and members, we have a

responsibility to nurture this child, this union, towards

adulthood, okay. The point is, it's not going to be any easier

than the process of the growth of a human being, and we have to

recognize that fact and be willing to go through all that we

have to go through in order to make it what it is. We HAVE to
grow, we have to develop, we have to undergo these kinds of
changes, because we have to meet the needs of our members. Our
members are not isolated beings, they're members of society,
they're teaching the children of this society, and we're all
building society. consequently, we have to go in the direction
we're going.

THOMAS: I would agree a great deal with you. In what I have

learned here is that across the nation, there is a uniformity of
need to focus on the school and [to ask] is the school meeting
the needs of the students, and these needs are changing, to

focus on having these students achieve and succeed in a real
world environment, which is changing and totally different from
the one in which we grew up and were educated in? I grew
up •••when I went to sleep at night, I would wake up in the
morning with the same world. When they split the atom, that
concept was forever destroyed, and students go to bed at night,
and in just that short a time.-seven hours--will wake up and the
world is totally different •..•

I agree with you [motioning to Deanna Woods]--the union is a
living thing and therefore involves beliefs and changes of
beliefs, and we'll grow. But were we when we first started? We
were interested in teacher salary and in working, environmental
conditions of the day's instruction. But as we have gone on,
the school is more. Those kids, when we were focused on salary
and environment, were different from the students that we have
today. And the teachers have changed. We have become more
mature, more experienced, and rather than just getting a college


Airlie interview/Question 6: The Union/3

degree, I think we have become educated and are continuing to
educate ourselves right now. I think our role as the union in
the future is a self-determination of what the profession is and
what our goals shall be.

HUTCHERSON: From the beginning of the conference until now, I
have heard over and over again, "teachers take charge of your
profession." And really, that is what I agree with, that is
what I've come to hear and that's what I'm leaving with. Yes,
we are moving in the right direction, and hopefully, we will
take charge of things that will govern our profession and make
us a profession.

HESS: In my case, I already had the very deep commitment to
teachers taking charge of their profession and I think that
commitment has been deepened and makes me feel that we are on
the right track. As far as the un£on goes •••when I started out
26 years ago, I considered myself a professional, and I went
with the association [NEA] because I was really brainwashed that
that's where professionalism was. After 10 years, I learned
that that was not the case, and I went through a real conversion~
process, and really saw the union was really doing what needed
to be done to make a profession. That is still continuing. One
of our teachers said to me before I came that the union needs to
be the conscience of education. reform, that's our role. I really
believe that.

THOMAS: Saul has become St. Paul. [Laughter]



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